Olga Tokarczuk: I would love to greet you with the words “good afternoon,” however this is certainly not a good afternoon for you, for us, and for the entire Europe. So instead I would start by asking you, perhaps, a stupid question. How are you now? How are you there in Lviv?
Ostap Slyvynsky: Hello, Olga. You are right, I am in Lviv and it is very hard to describe the feelings now. You know, the aggression was somehow expected. We know it has been predicted and it has been even described in detail how it would happen, but basically, no one was ready for the war. And I think it is impossible to be ready for war, even despite the technical preparation, even though we received instructions on how to prepare our alarm bags and how to behave during air raid alarms etc., emotionally you cannot be ready for something like war. So in the very beginning, there was a huge confusion. Basically, we all knew what to do because we had instructions, we even had some scenarios in case of war, but no one knew profoundly what to do.
And today it’s the 17th day of the war, and we are still in a state of huge confusion, of unpredictability. As we know, all negotiations that are being carried out are still unsuccessful, and no one can predict what would happen.
At the same time, almost all of us have found certain roles for ourselves. We have somehow managed to organize a new way of life. In the state of war, we are finding our new places in the new reality. Someone joined the army, someone joined the territorial defence forces, others help the refugees, some help to collect necessary supplies for the army, some help to inform the world about what’s going on now in Ukraine, etc. There are new roles. Of course, it is better to do what you know best. The country does not need 45 million heroes of the war. It is stupid to be eager to die, to sacrifice your life. It is the last solution and we should not consider it to be our aim. And yet everyone has to do what she or he does best.
What does it look like from Poland? I know that you, Olga, are taking care of the Ukrainian refugees, you are supporting us from the very first day of the Russian invasion, and you are commenting on this worldwide. What is the polish point of view?
Olga Tokarczuk: Here everybody repeats one and the same thing — there is a lack of words to understand, to explain, to say something. I think it’s the first time in my life that I lack words to name everything that is going on around me. And do you remember, Ostap, how we planned to meet in Wroclaw in June for the translation conference? So just about two weeks ago we were so optimistic that we would meet, and now everything has changed completely.
I think we are quite well informed by our media. In my house, the television is on all the time and I constantly browse the internet. I am really interested in personal perception, from a personal point of view. I would like to know, for example, where were you when the war began, what was this moment for you? Could you tell us? How did you know that Putin invaded your country?
Ostap Slyvynsky: Of course, I remember it perfectly well. It is widely known that the invasion happened early morning at around 5 a.m. It is especially cynical to invade sleeping and relaxed people. It’s the time of the day when people are unprepared and weak.
Olga Tokarczuk: The same was with WWII, on the 1st of September. It was also early in the morning.
Ostap Slyvynsky: This is classics. I woke up very early, I guess at 6.30 a.m. because I got a message from a friend of mine. This is not my closest friend. It was good five years ago when we communicated for the last time. So it was quite strange that he wrote to me at that hour, so early in the morning. And I clearly remember a phrase from his message — ‘horrible news.’ I read just these two words from his quite long message, and I understood what had happened. I read those two words and rushed to the computer to read the news that Russia had invaded us.
Of course, it was the strategy of an immediate shock by means of a widespread attack. Ukraine was attacked from three sides but it was also shelled. And the cities shelled by the missiles were also the cities in the western part of the country. This was done to create the impression that the entire Ukraine was in their hands, that they captured the whole country at once. Of course, later we realized it wasn’t true. And until now they did not manage to move their troops deep into the territory of Ukraine. They are still biting us from the peripheries. And though these bites are very painful, they are still on the side. Missiles are an exception. Missiles can be pinned from a huge distance.
The first emotion was complete confusion because you can’t get prepared for war.
And what about you? How did you react to learning that Russia had attacked Ukraine? What was your first emotion?
Olga Tokarczuk: We were completely shocked. I was in Warsaw at the time, and I saw people in the streets crying. They were Polish people. For Poles, this situation is very clear. It reminds them of the beginning of WWII. These situations are very similar. When Poland was invaded by Germans, by Nazis, in 1939, Poland had treaties and it felt protected by Great Britain, for example, and other countries. But Poland stood alone. And Ukraine is now in a similar situation. Of course, I know there are sanctions and economical support, yet very often this situation looks very surrealistic.
You know, I think in metaphors, in symbols, and sometimes I think about this in the way of the following metaphor: people are sitting around the table; they are talking, drinking, and eating. And all of a sudden a person at the table starts to beat his neighbour. And nobody really reacts. The victim is beaten and the reaction of the other people at the table is just expressing verbal support, maybe, I don’t know, giving something to comfort, but all of us are witnesses of an enormous act of aggression and violence. And I feel so uncomfortable to see this, and I am very disappointed because of the lack of stronger reactions, perhaps, military reactions from other countries. So I would say it’s an absurd situation because you are alone, fighting and dying.
You know me, Ostap. I always believed that nation is something very symbolic and not real. Real is a human being and real are the lives of people. So I can’t come to terms with the thought that people are dying. On the one hand, I see all these bombings of hospitals and damages to the schools and shelling of animals and animals being abandoned... and on the other hand, I see the bravery.
First of all, I would like to say that I adore your bravery and your decency in this abnormal crazy situation. I really like and adore how you treat the Russian soldiers who were captured by the Ukrainian army on the battlefield. And your entire idea of calling, reaching out to mothers, and giving these soldiers a voice to say something about their situation. I see something like this for the first time during the war. I have never seen anything like that before, such decent behaviour of soldiers, of the army, of the Ukrainian army. And there are many such things. Every afternoon and evening, we are watching what is going on, and we are with you. And this is also our war. Not only because we will be the next one but I also think that the Russian army, Putin, invaded this democratic world, this civilization body I would even say, to which we also belong together with Ukraine.
Ostap Slyvynsky: What you are saying is very important. On the one hand, I must agree with you that we feel a little bit lonely, and, on the other hand, we feel tremendous support from other Europeans and Americans and from other nations. I think it is very natural that we have support from the nations that were part of the socialistic part of the world during the Cold War period because they know what this Russian soviet domination means. We feel huge support and understanding, which is very important because there cannot be proper support without deep understanding.
Sometimes I, unfortunately, feel that people who want to support us express views that are obviously false to us. For example, sometimes people say that we can negotiate with Russia, negotiate some sort of peace with them. Unlike people who luckily never had any close relations with Russia and Russians, you — Poles — and Lithuanians, Latvians and Checks etc., other nations from the former Eastern Bloc understand that it is impossible to normally negotiate with someone like Russians. The only language they understand is the language of power, and the only kind of peace which is acceptable for them is the peace where they dominate over the others. The Russian version of peace is not based on consensus, on dialogue and respect for the interests of others. It is based on total domination. They can live peacefully only with those who depend on them or those who are under their total domination. This is the only version of peace they accept.
That’s why I must admit that I hate the word ‘peace.’ And this did not happen after the last days and weeks, it happened at least after the events of 2014, after the annexation of Crimea and after the occupation of the eastern parts of Ukraine. I hate the word ‘peace’ because it is overused and it is misused. And that is why I am usually quite suspicious when representatives of the Russian side, either the so-called neutral persons or even people who oppose Putin’s regime, use the word ‘peace’ and at the same time they do not use the words ‘war’ or ‘aggression;’ when they do not say ‘we are sorry, we feel ashamed that we represent the country, the aggressor state which dares to attack a peaceful nation, a peaceful neighbour.’ It seems that instead, they declare their wish for peace. And this is too weak; this is too neutral; this is not enough.
Sometimes I think they can’t understand what I mean when I say ‘this formula is not for you, it is too weak for you, it does not justify you.’ And that’s what people from Poland, from Lithuania etc. understand very well. You can’t live peacefully with this sort of mentality, though I don’t like the word ‘mentality.’ And yet, there is something called the Russian mentality, which is also based on the culture.
And it leads me to something I wanted to ask you, Olga. You probably know Russian literature, and Russian classics. What’s your general opinion about the Russian classics? What’s the role of the so-called great Russian literature and great Russian culture in everything which is happening right now? Or maybe the culture is completely innocent and we shouldn’t blame it?
Olga Tokarczuk: Well, I think you could ask me the same if we could get back to the past to the period of WWII about the German literature and German philosophers. And it is not easy to find a regular answer to this question.
When I was somewhere abroad, on the western side, in many conversations it was very obvious that my point of view, my perspective on Russians differed from those of the French writers or, let’s say, British writers, and especially German writers. Probably we have a neurotic point of view on the Russians and Russia. And sometimes I ask myself, is it neurotic? Is it the position of someone who was a victim in the past, someone who was invaded and it changed our attitude?
I think it would be quite dangerous to create theories that this is just a different wild culture or different civilization somewhere from Asia or I don’t know where from. It has something to do with the structure of power and many years of a strongly suppressed society that could not work out ways and tools how to deal with such a power.
The Russian literature... it was always a question of classes. The high classes were very westernized and had wide access to western culture. But war has nothing to do with literature. It is very hard to create any theories on how it works. And you know, even today we had a discussion about Dostoevsky at home, but to me, it seems very dangerous to have discussions about literature and to blame it for anything.
Ostap Slyvynsky: I saw an interesting study on Dostoevsky’s novels ‘Demons’ and ‘Crime and Punishment.’ These are the two works of the author which tried to justify the criminal, the crime. When one looks at reality from the point of view of a criminal, their moral system changes a bit. And I recalled it when I was listening to a press conference given by a Russian pilot who bombed peaceful Ukrainian cities. He was captured and given an opportunity to express his view. Maybe for these soldiers and officers, it is the only way to express their opinion because in Russia they would never have this chance. So this pilot said he was completely aware that he was expected to bomb a peaceful city, bomb civilian objects, critical infrastructure etc. He knew it would not be military infrastructure. And he could avoid it. He could refuse to execute these orders but he didn’t. And he said ‘I’m sorry.’
After that I had a very interesting discussion with one of my Russian friends who said, yes, it is awful what he did, it is horrible and it is a huge crime against humanity — bombing peaceful cities — but please try to look at the situation from his point of view. He was so deeply confused, it is such a big moral confusion that he was sent to execute this kind of order.
However, I don’t think we should try to look at every situation from the point of view of the criminal. He is a criminal. He could refuse to execute the order but he still executed it. And therefore he is a criminal. I think that maybe this is something which is in the very structure of the Russian culture — this very intention to justify the criminal and to blame the victim at the same time. Ukrainians are guilty of what is happening to them. They provoked the Russians. They are guilty. According to Russian propaganda, Russia found itself in a situation when it was forced to act against some imaginary danger from Ukraine’s side. And the commanders who ordered to shoot at the civilians are innocent. And this is a huge moral trick, a terrible moral trick that is the foundation of Russian thinking. Maybe I am wrong but this is my perception.
Olga Tokarczuk: I think we have to remember that for soldiers refusing the orders is some kind of heroism. And heroism? Let’s say that heroism is not available to everybody. To me, the Ukrainian soldiers shown on the television seem to be very weak guys, young guys, boys even, who don’t really know where they are and what’s going on. And I would not expect such heroism from them.
And I also know what war changes. It changes our way of thinking. And we are much keener to be sharp in our opinions and are more prone to think in black and white, and we have a tendency to use stronger words in the description of another person. This is also very harmful to me, this new language which is not so delicate and subtle anymore. We work with the language and we know that with such a fruitful language we can describe the world better. So let’s try and use this subtle language during the war, let’s try not to be too black and white.
Of course, there are many criminals. And I think that Putin and his co-operators are criminals. And after the war, I hope they are and I would insist that they are taken to court. From the western side, there are some thoughts that it is better to leave Putin alone, somewhere free, not to make more chaos in the world. But there is law and such people should pay for what they’ve done. It is a very complicated situation and we should be careful about our language, for both sides.
Ostap Slyvynsky: What you are saying is very important. I must admit something I feel very similar to what you said at the very beginning. I feel I lack words. So I decided or rather I felt that I must let other people speak. That’s what many writers did in the past during or right after WWII, giving chance to other people, to the witnesses, to speak. And I started to collect short monologues of people who are somehow engaged in war. These are refugees, soldiers, and volunteers. And this is some sort of human evidence of what is happening. I call this project ‘Words of War.’ Every word is redefined with a fragment of a monologue. And what people are telling is horrible from one side and priceless from the other. Maybe this will also become evidence for a court, for a court for human rights. I think it is our collective duty as human beings, as humanity, to call all the criminals to court after the war ends.
Olga Tokarczuk: To finish our talks I would like to say that I am actually proud of how Poles are dealing with the refugees. You know, several months ago we had a flow of refugees from Iraq and Syria on the Belorussian border. And I am not happy about how Polish people not in general but our government and some Polish people behaved towards those refugees. And now, this is a completely different situation! We try to understand what really happened and the thing is that Poles perceive Ukrainians as a very close people especially because of the language even though we don’t fully understand each other, to be honest, and also because of the culture. And there is a huge social movement in Poland now. Everybody is helping. Everyone I know is somehow involved in helping refugees. From the time of solidarity in the 1980s, I’ve never seen such a big social movement. I think this will also change our relationship, perhaps for a longer time in the future. And in this dark time, I am very proud and happy that as a nation we still have such a warm heart for Ukrainians.
Ostap Slyvynsky: Thank you, Olga, this is priceless. And in this tough situation, we see clearly who our friend is. And maybe to finish our conversation with something positive I am happy that we, Ukrainians and Poles, managed to overcome some bad things that were in our relations while facing this great danger which is common for all of us.
Olga Tokarczuk: I don’t think that we will have this war for three months, as some people say. I believe the end will come much sooner. And I wish you and all of us for this war to get over sooner than we think.
Ostap Slyvynsky: We don’t have to always listen to the predictions of specialists. I remember, there were those who at the beginning were saying Ukraine would give up after 72 hours. It did not happen. So I also hope the war will not last for the next three or four months. I believe that our victory is very close. I am deeply convinced that we as a nation can defend ourselves and we are doing it successfully now. Of course, we will win, and one day we will wake up in a new world, to a new story, a better story, where Russia is an ordinary country somewhere on the outskirts of the western civilization. And Ukraine will be a free democratic country and a part of the European community and surrounded by friends like Poles and Lithuanians and so on.
Olga Tokarczuk: There is no doubt that Ukraine wins.
