Dialogues on War. Myroslav Marynovych and Serhii Plokhii
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Dialogues on War. Myroslav Marynovych and Serhii Plokhii

On February 24 the armed forces of the Russian Federation carried out a full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Today, the whole world is talking about it. In order to comprehend the events of the last days, we are launching a series of conversations #DialoguesOnWar. Ukrainian and foreign intellectuals will talk about the experience of the war and share their own observations.

Speakers of the fourth episode:

Myroslav Marynovych, Vice Rector of the Ukrainian Catholic University

Serhii Plokhii, Director of the Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute

Video of the conversation

Text version of the conversation

Serhii Plokhii: Thank you very much for the invitation and the opportunity to speak to Myroslav Marynovych, a legend of Ukraine. I am also grateful for my generous and kind introduction. However, one of the books listed is not mine; I just wrote a foreword to it. And yet, this book might be of great interest to readers today. It is Mychailo Wynnytskyj’s work ‘Ukraine’s Maidan, Russia’s War: A Chronicle and Analysis of the Revolution of Dignity.’ I recommended it before it was published and I recommend it now.

Well, today we are in the 14th day of the war, the Russian aggression against Ukraine. In Russia, this war is called a ‘special military operation.’ Even Ukrainian allies didn’t think that Ukraine would last for more than two days. However, today we are in the second week. So my first question to Myroslav Marynovych is how are you doing? How is your family? How are your friends and your loved ones?

Myroslav Marynovych: Thank you. Hello, everyone. I am safe. Now, I am in Lviv with my wife. I have also invited and accepted two relatives of mine from Kyiv. Now, they are in my house. And I see how these days were horrible for them because they are in a very bad psychological shape. I witness how difficult it is for Lviv to accept 30 thousand people every day — refugees and displaced persons. Of course, these difficulties are not comparable to the sufferings of people in Kharkiv, Melitopol, Kyiv and other places. And at the same time it is challenging, and the entire Ukraine is in horror. And these horrors are comparable to the horrors of World War II. When you see Lviv railway station crowded with people at night, these are scenes from the films about World War II. And it is terrifying.

Serhii Plokhii: It is absolutely true. Myroslav, you are a husband, a relative, a citizen, and you are also a vice-rector of the Ukrainian Catholic University, one of the leading universities, at least in my opinion, in Ukraine. What does the war mean for the university, for the staff, and the students? Do you continue with your classes or do you not? What do you do? What part of your daily life and communications are taken up by your university duties?

Myroslav Marynovych: In the first days, we started to transform our regular lections into talking to students, because they were in a big shock. So all professors started to work as psychologists. But now we divided our activities.

First of all, a lot of our students, who are staying in Lviv, are volunteers. And there is a huge space for volunteers at our university, where we receive some humanitarian aid from the West, and repack and reload stuff to be transported and delivered to Kyiv, Kharkiv, and other places in the East.

Also, we accept many refugees and many displaced persons at our premises. We cannot accept all of them, so we gave priority, for example to our students’ parents and our partners from other universities.

And the third direction of our activity is information. We are working with our partners all over the world in an attempt to reach their brains and their hearts with the heart-breaking information about the situation here.

Serhii Plokhii: Certainly, I can only imagine what the university is going through, trying to do its best to help Ukraine. And it is very difficult. When we had an email exchange before our today’s meeting, there was one thing you wanted me to mention.

Today is the anniversary of Taras Shevchenko’s birthday. I opened my Facebook, and there was as much about Shevchenko there, as there was about the war. Our current event is organised by PEN Ukraine. Of course, Shevchenko is a major poet, writer, and author, and there is no point in saying that poets do matter. And still, I wonder why you wanted to talk about Shevchenko being important today, why you mentioned Shevchenko amid this war, amid all these challenges. What is there for you, for the entire Ukraine in that 19th-century poet?

Myroslav Marynovych: Taras Shevchenko always comes to Ukrainians in the most difficult times. I remember my time in prison. From the very beginning, I had a small ‘Kobzar’ — a collection of poems by Taras Shevchenko — with me. His poetry revealed its inner depth and strength much more than during normal life.

When there is a clash between good and evil, Shevchenko appears immediately. That’s why we, Ukrainians, say that his works are another gospel for us. Like God, he comes to Ukrainians, when they suffer.

It was very obvious during all Maidans. Shevchenko’s poetry was quoted. It was exhibited. And people lived with this spirit of the struggle between good and evil. And now he comes again to appeal to us, to encourage us, to stand for truth.

Serhii Plokhii: You mentioned your being a prisoner of GULAG, a dissident, and I was thinking that Shevchenko was also in exile a good part of his life, so, to a certain degree, he was a dissident before this term in this particular meaning appeared. Let me read an excerpt from his poem ‘The Caucasus,’ which I think illustrates what you’ve been saying.

‘And our human spirit dies not
And our freedom dies not...
It is for us to keep on weeping
With bloody sweat and bitter tear...
And mix each day with our daily bread
Truth will rise and so will freedom...’

Certainly, I looked up online for an English translation and the first article that popped up was by George Lutskyi from 1964 on whether Shevchenko was a symbol of universal freedom. No doubts, that freedom is the word he uses a lot.

And that leads me to my next question. Sometimes people talk about this current war as about the war more than just the defence of Ukraine but rather the defence of Europe or the defence of universal values. And I wonder whether you see it this way as well. Is it bigger than Ukraine? Is there something universal in it? Is there something European that Ukrainians defend today through their heroism and their suffering?

Myroslav Marynovych: I would give an even wider picture. Let me start with the following. In the 20th century, there were two totalitarian systems — the Nazi system and the communist system.

Nazi system was condemned. The reasons and sources of this ideology were clarified and in some countries even forbidden by law. The German nation passed through a moral reckoning. And it liberated itself from this ideology.

This didn’t happen in our part of the world with the communist ideology. After the Yalta agreements, the communist crimes were hidden by the victorious states, Russia, by the Soviet Union, which defeated Nazi Germany. And all their crimes were forgiven. At least, there was no Nuremberg for communist crimes. And we knew perfectly well, (by ‘we’ I mean the former political prisoners) that seeds that were left in the ground would sprout. And it happened in modern Russia. Putin’s regime is the reincarnation of Dzerzhinsky, Stalin and so forth. It is not strange that Stalin is still a hero for Putin and many Russians. We have the reincarnation of the communist regime. Now, humanity has to understand that we will not go further into the 21st century without putting an end to this heritage of the communist regime.

For the West, it is very difficult to understand, because the West was living in a win-win realm. And it is wonderful. I do appreciate that win-win solution for the world. But here we deal with a criminal government that cannot be equalized with a normal state.

These days I watched some European news. The first news block was dedicated to Ukraine, to all the atrocities, bombing and so on. And then there was Lavrov, Russian foreign minister, saying ‘no, we are not bombing residential areas.’ Period. And who knows where the truth is?

This is typical western journalist ethics — to provide two opinions. But we cannot find a golden middle between good and evil. That’s the point. That’s why my appeal to the world is to go away from this win-win approach in this case. When Putin’s regime is defeated, when the Russian nation goes through moral reckoning, then we may re-establish this normal, civilised win-win style of life. It cannot be done with this regime.

And I see that there is still a pre-condition that, well, we have to be in dialogue with Putin, but no one was saying that we had to be in dialogue with Hitler.

Serhii Plokhii: Well, there were people who spoke that way. There were people who were in dialogue with Hitler. The difference is that they were condemned. Their views and their conditions are unacceptable today. And this certainly didn’t happen in the 20th century with the communist regime and Stalin’s regime in particular. And what you are saying seems to be quite obvious. An unprovoked attack on a peaceful country is evil. Killing civilians and sending millions into exile is evil. And evil should not get the same treatment and the same platform as victims and people who fight against it. It seems obvious, but somehow it is difficult to accept for some outlets.

Myroslav Marynovych: I would like to say a few words from the perspective of PEN. For us, members of PEN International, PEN Ukraine, the cornerstone of our activity is defending a word. And this means defending the truth. We can be faithful to our mission only if we are faithful to the truth. And this is exactly what is under attack in Russia.

The information war launched against Ukraine is unbelievable! Starting with accusations of fascism and nationalism, all these talks about little green men, we are not there, and all the clichés are just a symbol of lie. We see that Russia gathered troops next to the Ukrainian border before the war, but Russia blamed Ukraine and NATO for threatening Russia. So we are the ones accused all the time. Now, Russia is trying to de-Nazify Ukraine. It’s unbelievable! What actually has to be de-Nazified is the Russian regime. We see how a word is under attack, how a word is suffering. And I am sure it is legitimate for the PEN members to, first of all, oppose this awful propaganda that is being distributed all over the world.

Serhii Plokhii: Thank you Myroslav. I think it is a very important call for action in the sense that action has to be in defence of the truth. That’s what I think this war is very much about. Let me return to where I’ve started. No one expected this war to last for more than a few days. And such expectations were because no one expected the Ukrainian nation to rise to defend itself and the truth and those universal values it is a part of. Could you please tell us, in your opinion, why Ukrainians fight? And why did no one, or very few, expect that to happen? What is there in Ukraine that people from outside failed to see? Be those people in Paris, Moscow, Vienna or New York.

Myroslav Marynovych: This becomes clear when we look at the two goals of Putin. It is two-sided: Ukrainians want to oppose what Putin wants.

First of all, after 1991, Ukraine and Russia started to move in different directions. Ukraine slowly started to move towards a European future, overcoming communist trauma. And at the same time, Russia started its way back to the totalitarian past. Today, all new laws in Russia just re-establish the totalitarian regime. Putin proposed his authoritarian model as the only one acceptable to the east Slavic nations. And Ukrainian democracy became unbearable for him. And now take a look at Ukrainian emotions. We do not want to come back to a totalitarian state. We have already experienced freedom. We had freedom of speech, very clearly. Of course, we had to overcome many weaknesses inherited after the communist regime, but we know the taste of freedom. That’s the reason Ukrainians are opposing Putin's idea.

Now let’s look at Putin’s second goal. He has publicly and in a very brutal manner denied the national identity of Ukrainians and our state subjectivity. He named Ukraine an understate; and said there was no such nation. However, the revival of the Russian empire — the idea he’s fixed on — cannot be realised without Ukraine, because the legitimization of the Russian empire lies in Kyiv, in Kyiv’s heritage. So we want to fight for our independence. Again, we tasted this independence. We do not want to come back to the Russian past. So as you see this double logic gives us enormous power.

And maybe let me also give some spiritual dimension to this issue. Putin’s regime uses three elements of evil. The first one is lies, I spoke about that. The second one is hatred. And many non-Russian people just cannot imagine the level of hatred on the internet, at the official level and on social media, that simply enormous level of hatred against Ukrainians. The third element is violence, aggression. These three elements are the elements of evil. So for us, this is the struggle with evil. And we want to live in the world of truth, in the world of compassion. We do not want to live under totalitarian violence. That’s all.

Serhii Plokhii: Thank you. As you were talking, I was thinking about the images we are getting today from cities and towns in southern Ukraine either besieged or formally occupied by Russian troops. The people are not afraid to go out with the Ukrainian flags, protest against the invasion, and confront without weapons the occupying forces. And this is happening in the cities and regions, where the dominant language is Russian. The cities that are bombed and where atrocities and crimes are taking place are mostly Russian-speaking cities. That is the very same population Putin claims he wants to liberate. And that brings me to another question.

You’ve mentioned a couple of words about Ukrainian national identity. So what is that national identity? The maps that people can see on the internet are not only maps of military actions. They are also the maps of Ukraine divided by Russian speakers and Ukrainian speakers. The Russian language and the defence of the Russian language are a big part of the propaganda on the part of Russia. So what is the Ukrainian nation for you? Is this the language? You are the vice-rector of the Ukrainian Catholic University, and the majority of the country, at least traditionally, is Orthodox. So there are linguistic differences, and there are differences in terms of the church. What makes up a Ukrainian nation in this resolve to defend itself?

Myroslav Marynovych: Thank you. It’s a very good question. Now, when I speak of Ukrainian identity, I use the term ‘mosaic’ identity. Ukrainian identity is not homogeneous, it is mosaic. And our challenge is to find a proper way to harmonise all these mosaic differences. And during Maidans, we managed to do that. We understood that we can. It is not a fatal moment for Ukraine. We can be united. And now it is even more visible. There is no difference between various regions in the sense of struggling for our freedom.

Now, you observed perfectly well that Putin attacked the predominantly Russian-speaking territories. Let me give you a theoretical picture. We all know there are some linguistic controversies in Belgium. Well, they are regulated in a legal and practical sense. And now imagine that let’s say France announced a war against Belgium, blaming Belgium for violating the rights of francophone groups and trying to occupy Belgium to de-Nazify the Belgium state. This is the picture that may illustrate what happened in Ukraine. Of course, saying that our identity is mosaic, I recognize and I admit that there are differences and controversies between Russian-speaking and Ukrainian-speaking populations, but these controversies would never become a violent military conflict without the interference of Russia. This was Russia that transformed these controversies into war. And it is a tragic irony that the Russian-speaking population suffered the most. In order to bring safety to these regions Putin’s regime just ruined them and the lives of people there totally.

Serhii Plokhii: And they are speaking of the de-Nazification of the country that is led — in terms of origin — by the only Jewish president in Europe based outside of Israel, or where the minister of defence also has a Jewish background. And this is also a dimension of the Ukrainian identity and Ukrainian patriotism.
My next question is about the future. First of all, what gives you hope that Ukraine will succeed in this battle? You look at the map, you see how big the Russian Federation is, again, the maps might be misleading, but the population is at least three times as big as in Ukraine. What gives you hope in this situation when you look at the map and at the numbers?

Myroslav Marynovych: Let’s come back to the late 1970s. I was in prison then, and Brezhnev’s regime looked very strong. And still, we, the political prisoners, smelled the death of this regime. We were sure that sooner or later this regime will fade away. And it happened in 1991.

Now, Russia seems to be one of the strongest states in the world. At least, according to Putin. But we see the inner weakness of this state. And again I can smell the death of this regime. And this gives me hope.

On the one hand, Ukraine found enormous energy to defend itself. And on the other hand, I see the spiritual weakness of Russia. The great Russian culture, Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, it is not used in modern Russia. Putin tries to restore the power of Russia in a military state, in lies, and in hatred. It’s the dead end. That’s why I am optimistic. I don’t know how many victims there would be, I don’t know the price, but I see the agony of Putin’s regime.

Serhii Plokhii: And what about the idea of the great Russian nation? The idea that Russians and Ukrainians are one nation? At least this is proclaimed as one of the rationales of the war. What is happening with that idea of affinity? Cultural and linguistic and historic affinity? What does the war do to that concept?

Myroslav Marynovych: I am absolutely sure that god didn’t create a criminal nation. Humanity passed through several examples when some nations were announced criminal or evil or the incarnation of evil, but later we understood that this picture is wrong, because every nation has a possibility to transform itself. And I believe that the Russian nation also has this ability.

Just compare the dynamics and compare the proper moment. If you asked Germans under the Nazis in 1932-1933, all of them would support Hitler. Or at least, the majority of them. Now, the majority of Russians support Putin. That’s why I say that I believe that after the fall of Putin’s regime, I would expect a moral reckoning of the Russian people.

By the way, it is also a challenge for Ukrainians, because many Ukrainians also supported the communist regime. So they have their task as well. Not only the Russians. But first of all the Russians of course. Now it is very clear.

Serhii Plokhii: Being outside of Ukraine, I am really impressed by the support for Ukraine and the struggle of Ukrainians on all levels. The reports that are coming from Poland which borders Ukraine are amazing in terms of its solidarity. And this is given the relations were not entirely great before the start of the war. So, being in Ukraine and in particular in the western part of Ukraine, what is your reading, what do you make of this support of the immediate neighbours of Ukraine, manifested maybe not just in the form of donations but also in Facebook posts? These people take other people, whom they never saw in their lives under their roof, share their homes and their food with them. There is clearly a major change. And I wonder what the reason for that change is? What drives it? What do you think about it?

Myroslav Marynovych: First of all, I feel enormous gratitude. The first days it was very difficult psychologically for Ukrainians because we thought we were alone in this struggle. And now we see that more and more countries express their solidarity with us. And these are not just words, but also practical support. I don’t want to list those nations as there is always a danger to miss somebody, but we really appreciate this support.

On the other hand, I am afraid that some people who leave the country may misbehave, and I am afraid that this feeling of solidarity will be changed in some hearts. So I am requesting all Europeans who are listening to me now to understand that people in frustration and shock may behave in a different way, so please forgive them.

As a closing remark, I would like to quote Shevchenko,
Struggle on—and be triumphant!
God Himself will aid you;
At your side fight truth and glory,
Right and holy freedom.