Dialogues on War. Natalya Gumenyuk and Sławomir Sierakowski

Sławomir Sierakowski: We are trying to support Ukraine in many ways, one of which is sending weapons, humanitarian aid, etc. And we know that your needs are changing, especially now, when Russia is attacking critical infrastructure. What kind of support does Ukraine need today?

Nataliya Gumenyuk: Our needs are always both strategic and non-strategic. As we are approaching winter, we need power generators. They are already out of stock in Ukraine, and soon they will be in Europe too.
We are adjusting to reality, hoping that our energy infrastructure is going to be rebuilt and renewed.

Strategically, I understand that it is quite a difficult task to destroy a power plant. That is why Russians are destroying transmission stations which distribute electricity. Some equipment essential for distributing and transmitting energy is already being supplied by our allies. It is very expensive, but the state, local authorities, and electricity suppliers need it to redistribute the energy. It is absolutely critical.

Winter clothes for the army are also in high demand. We have some, but there is always a need for more because of the number of people who are serving in the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
Ukrainians have also started buying Starlinks. Issues with electricity, as you know, are causing problems with the connection. 

There was also a call from our authorities asking Ukrainians who have left the country to spend this winter abroad. A lot of our citizens came back home during the summer. Leaving for the second time is a serious decision that requires thinking through. Having an established hosting period in European countries until March or so would also help.

Sławomir Sierakowski: What you are suggesting now is a call to the European governments to take care of Ukrainian refugees, especially in winter times. I observed that financial help was stopped, and it should be relaunched to enable people to stay abroad during the blackouts. 

I am trying to be concrete and pragmatic here. There are things that should be resolved immediately. Theoretical discussions about Ukraine are not the priority right now, practical issues are.

Nataliya Gumenyuk:  As a citizen, I am absolutely grateful to Poland for everything Poles do for Ukraine. And I am grateful to you personally. You were the one behind the fundraising campaign to buy a Bayraktar drone for Ukraine. My next question is to you as a journalist. How do you explain to yourself and others the fact that in this war, journalists are raising funds for military aid?

Sławomir Sierakowski: I do not care at all whether it is a part of the journalist’s mission or not. Russians are killing journalists the same way they are killing other people. I have no illusions about Russia.

I think of myself as an opinion-maker rather than a journalist. I am writing op-eds and I am running the largest Polish NGO with a political agenda. I am an activist. I was never interested in a purely journalistic mission.
The thing that inspired me the most during our fundraising campaign was the support coming from the greatest moral authorities. For example, Adam Bodnar, an ombudsman whom I consider the most moral person in Poland, supported our initiative, and so did many other human rights activists.

In Poland, we do not have any illusions about Russia. The photos on the front pages of Polish newspapers the next day after the liberation of Bucha shocked me deeply. But the images were different on the front pages of the Western European press. It is not censorship, but rather a misled and misunderstood attempt at ‘political correctness’. I do hope that this war will open Western Europe’s eyes.

How would you assess the reaction of Germans, French, and other Western Europeans to the situation? Unlike them, Americans and British people never had illusions about Russia.

Nataliya Gumenyuk: I am a person who usually has limited expectations. I expect less and then get positively surprised by the result.

This autumn I am travelling very often. I take part in conferences and large-scale events of different kinds because it is my opportunity to speak. And, to be honest, it is difficult to be in cities like Berlin and Vienna – but not because life there seems peaceful.

People fail to see that in this war there is really only black and white. A lot of Western Europeans are trying to perceive this war through the clichés of all the wars in the past, while in reality, it is quite unique. It is difficult for them to understand that a lot of institutions, like the UN and the European Council, and policies have failed, and it is time to reform everything. When the institutions that are so heavily funded fail to stop the war and protect Europe, you need to change them. And it is difficult to accept for many Western Europeans.
I feel like Germany and France are still in their comfort zone. They are still treating Ukraine as a small country, choosing to deal with Russia as an empire first.

To be completely open with you, I feel like Ukraine is being asked to become this lamb that needs to be sacrificed for the stability of the world. We are pushed towards negotiations and sacrificing our country for the rest to survive. I am convinced that we are in a position to refuse. We do appreciate everyone’s help, but we want to live and we are not ready to put our lives at stake – not because we do not care about the world, but for us, this war is a fight of David against Goliath. Is throwing Ukraine into the mouth of the dragon that is Russia the only way to save the world?

War cannot be strictly rational. It is not only a newsworthy analysis. You need to be able to see that something bigger is going on here.

Recently I participated in an event attended by many European editors. I was the only Ukrainian there. At some point, they started discussing Ukraine fatigue influenced by Ukrainian refugees in Europe, and how that might lead to internal conflicts in the EU countries. While it is an important  issue to discuss in the future, was it really the most relevant topic to be brought up during this event?

How are Ukrainian refugees seen in Poland after all these months?

Sławomir Sierakowski: Recently we have conducted extensive and deep sociological research focused on studying the reaction of Poles towards the pandemic, the war, and, following that, the inflation and its other economic consequences. The results we received shocked us.

Unfortunately, the resentment against Ukrainian refugees is growing. People are for Ukraine but against Ukrainians. It has nothing to do with the Ukrainian identity. It is all about how Poles deal with their problems.
Before, they would blame other Poles for their economic problems. It is an issue of great distrust people have in institutions and one another. On the contrary, in the event of an economic crisis, Western Europeans tend to blame the state or look for deeper social processes behind it. They think in a more sophisticated way. Eastern Europeans are used to blaming each other. And now they are blaming Ukrainians.

Do not get me wrong – there is no dehumanising or hate speech directed at Ukrainians. But people start believing in conspiracy theories, entirely made-up stories of someone apparently witnessing Ukrainians wanting to get services for free. These stories are also never told by direct witnesses – it is always someone's aunt or second cousin who saw that happening. But, unfortunately, fake stories always have real consequences. And this issue is not articulated in the public sphere. The media are not talking about it. 
I am scared that we are sitting on the bomb here. Politicians need to talk about this, otherwise, we will have huge trouble in the future.

When Ukrainians thank us for our help, I feel confused. It is us Poles who should thank you – because you are fighting for our security too.

Nataliya Gumenyuk: Unfortunately, I think that resentment towards refugees is inevitable.

In 2012, I visited Irbid, the closest Jordanian town to Syria. Back then, everyone was welcoming Syrians and trying to help them. When I came back a year later, it was already different. Jordanians were annoyed that Syrians were crossing the border with their nice expensive cars, that the rent prices went up and that there were no more places to live. I experienced the same thing in Ukraine in 2014, when people were escaping the east of Ukraine.

You are absolutely right that this issue has to be addressed as early as possible. But there is only so much we can do. We can try to mitigate this, but it will never go away completely. This is just the reality of internally displaced people and refugees everywhere, unfortunately.  

Before we conclude, I want to bring up the issue of distrust one more time. Right before the full-scale invasion, we conducted major sociological research dedicated to thirty years of Ukrainian independence. The results have shown three main issues faced by Ukrainians: distrust in institutions; lack of connection to Ukrainians in other regions of the country; and the feeling of powerlessness, that nothing depends on them.

In 2022, it is completely reversed. The extreme situation of the war raised the level of trust in the government and other people. The country became interconnected – people in Chernihiv were crying about Mariupol, and people in Odesa were asking about Kharkiv. Ukrainians started feeling for every town and loving every town. And, of course, people feel extremely empowered. Everything depends on us.

Edited by Cammie McAtee