On February 24 the armed forces of the Russian Federation carried out a full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Today, the whole world is talking about it. In order to comprehend the events of the last days, PEN Ukraine launched a series of conversations #DialoguesOnWar.
Ukrainian and foreign intellectuals talk about the experience of the war and share their own observations.
Speakers of the 28th episode:
– Constantin Sigov, philosopher
– Philippe de Lara, philosopher
Philippe de Lara: February 24 was an enormous shock for many people in France who have — at last! — opened their eyes to the brutality of Russia and to the atrocities we did not think the Russians were capable of. At the same time, people who did not know much or knew very little about Ukrainians suddenly discovered their courage, love of freedom and patriotism, ingenuity, love, and power. I believe that it plays a deciding role in the reaction of our country, in the unity and solidarity of Europeans which has strengthened since the very beginning of the war. For me, Ukraine has triggered a real conversion of Europeans. In March, in your article published by Le Figaro, you told the story of thirteen hours of Ukrainian resistance. I would like to ask you, where did this resistance come from? I think about the French: if the same happened in France, would our people exhibit that resilience?
Constantin Sigov: Thank you for the question. We can state that Europe now is waking up while facing this war, this resilience of Ukrainians against Russia. Six months of this cruel aggression, accompanied by absolutely enormous lies, have passed. On August 24, the Independence Day of Ukraine, the special edition of L’Express magazine was issued. The entire issue was dedicated to Ukraine and its people, both civilians and military, men and women of different ages and professions, who, each in their own way, have already contributed to this resistance. At the very beginning of this special edition, Taras Shevchenko’s poem is quoted: “Our soul cannot die and the truth is always going to prevail.”
On February 24, we were woken up at 5 am by the bombs. We responded to numerous calls and questions of journalists and friends from the West, testifying that our nation has stood up and the truth has not been killed. In fact, every Ukrainian now can testify to it in more than words.
In the interview for Le Figaro that you had mentioned, I tried to explain that the resistance in Budapest in 1956, in Prague in 1968, and the very powerful movement of Solidarity in Poland, really prepared the world for the emergence of a different, free Eastern Europe that would put an end to the totalitarian Soviet experience, stop this Soviet madness. Today, despite everything, even you in France can see this idea of the Soviet Union reemerging again. The empire does not want to die. Keeping it alive is the goal of the Russian government.
For me, a real revelation of today’s resistance against Russian imperialism is the Maidan generation. The young people, who have grown up and pursued their education in independent Ukraine, showed their patriotism during the Orange Revolution in 2004 and in 2014, during the Revolution of Dignity. My two children, my students, and the whole generation of young Ukrainians that I know persuaded me that this movement towards freedom, an exodus from Egypt so to say, was key for all democracies.
Our war for independence, our anti-totalitarian, anti-colonial war, has already changed the destiny of our century. Even though it is going to last for a long time, I hope that the solidarity of the free countries and their capacity to defend our freedom, which we have discovered during this war, will persist.
The ability of Ukrainians to unite by defending their dignity and freedom is a signal that we have not yet exhausted our resources of unity. It could be a lesson for some extremely divided Western societies. We understand the fragility of the European Union and we really hope that democracies are going to prioritise issues that are important, deep, and necessary today.
Philippe de Lara: What you are saying is very important. Essentially, it is a crisis of our democracy. It is a crisis of our unity, which is founded on a deep doubt of the very existence of our national community, of the basic confidence we can have in our compatriots. The lessons we can learn from Ukraine are very important indeed.
Europeans understood very fast that they were at war themselves. In the beginning, there was a lot of talking about ‘the war at the doors of Europe’. But the realisation that the war is actually taking place in Europe came very quickly.
Still, there is an important step to take: to recognise, not just technically, but in essence, that we, Western Europeans, are at war with Russia. Because it is us, it is Europe in general, not only Ukraine, that Russia has attacked. Once this recognition comes, we are going to quickly further our support of Ukraine and provide the much-needed military aid.
When the full-scale war had just started, there were concerns about providing Ukraine with offensive rather than only defensive weapons. It is very significant that this notion, which had been very much present in the French public discourse, has disappeared. We have become aware that we are in this war, that it is a whole different challenge.
Constantin Sigov: I was actually very surprised by this hesitation to recognise that the Russians actually hated the West. For many years, their TV channels have openly claimed that it is the West that they actually oppose.
This very battle against the dictatorial regime, which does not hide its aggressor's nature anymore, also changes the behaviour of collaborationists everywhere, including France, Italy, Spain, and other countries. I am not even talking about Hungary here, which is an exceptional case, real sabotage in the context of European defence and democratic Europe.
This crisis can change the situation in Europe in two ways. It can bring us closer. Or, on the contrary, it can divide us even more, in case Hungary and other countries become seduced by sabotage or get too afraid of Russian blackmail. Regular citizens in Europe do not realise that the Russian economy is, in fact, much weaker than the Italian, let alone French and German economies. It is like a gangster that wants to scare us, but, in reality, does not even have economic, cultural or spiritual means in plain geopolitics to become anyone’s competitor. So, in my opinion, we have to transcend this state of apathy, fear, and disorientation. It is very necessary.
Philippe de Lara: This awakening of Europe has two aspects. On one hand, we have to be aware that it is indeed extremely difficult because Russia started the hybrid war against the European nation a long time ago. Since the fall of the USSR, people who wanted to restore it immediately targeted the EU. They tried to establish a network of influence in our country to corrupt political and public figures. This process was going on on rather deep levels. On the other hand, our countries, at least the UK, Germany, and France, tried to get out of this trap, this mix of seduction, fear, and corruption that Russia tried to feed them. Seduction by power and fear by power, which is caused today by nuclear weapons and corruption.
There is also, I have to note, the development of the public debate. Of course, public opinion in France is not unanimous. Not everybody understands the war in Ukraine the same way. But still, there is more and more consensus about the existential nature of the conflict between European civilization and Russia.
What I see as positive evolution is the very fact that we stopped constantly speaking about “after the war”. There was a discourse that was pretty reassuring. We talked about the war and then immediately switched to talking about going back to normality, including in relations between Europe, Ukraine, and Russia. Europe did not want to accept the idea of a persisting opposition, an everlasting conflict between two civilizations, represented by Europe on the one hand, and by the Russian regime on the other hand.
Despite the aggression, all Ukrainians, not just the government, in the meantime manage to maintain communications, the Internet, power grids, railroads, and the organisation of the army. We see that this nation is extraordinary. The understanding of Ukraine beyond the war, plus the heroic power of Ukrainians continues to advance that very awareness about the Ukrainian cause. That Ukraine is Europe, or, more exactly, that Europe is Ukraine.
Sometimes my Ukrainian friends are a bit too pessimistic about France. They tend to see mostly negative signs. Like when our president said many times that we should not be embarrassing Russia. He does not say it anymore. They also sometimes underestimate the development of public opinion. For example, the conservative Le Figaro newspaper for many years was if not pro-Russian then sympathising with Putin. Since the beginning of the war, their editorial stance has changed completely. The newspaper's solidarity with Ukraine has become pretty evident.
This conversion of Europeans cannot happen immediately. It is a detoxification of sorts. We are getting rid of the poison that we were willingly taking for many decades. We were in the illusion of being out of history after the collapse of the USSR. It became difficult to recognise that we do have an enemy, we do have to fight it, and we do have to draw borders of security between us Europeans and hostile Russian power. We do not only have to defend Ukraine and help it liberate its territories. We also have to do something to make sure that Russia is incapable of attacking Europe anymore.
I would like to ask Constantin the last question. There was a declaration from the Hermitage Museum, in which its director Mikhail Petrovsky declared his full support for militarism and imperialism, claiming that the Hermitage’s exhibitions abroad are a very powerful cultural attack, a “special operation” of sorts. Lots of people have found his statement disgusting, yet absurd rather than frightening. Can you please explain to us the challenge of a cultural war against Russian imperialism in Ukraine?
Constantin Sigov: I believe that Petrovsky’s statement shocked people who did not want to notice the ideological stance of the biggest Russian museum. By the way, we
are still waiting for the response of its branches opened in Europe, which are now compliant with the imperialistic and militaristic views of the director who is obviously close to the Kremlin.
All this symbolic kitsch around the so-called Russian world, this symbolic decor vested in orthodox symbols, this whole mix has become truly explosive and toxic. We cannot be tolerant or even neutral to it anymore, it is simply impossible if we do not want to become collaborationists of sorts.
British journalist Peter Pomerantsev once said that by depending on Russian gas, Europe has become a victim of an abusive relationship. How should it liberate itself? Europe must end it as soon as possible. It is not going to be simple, but there is no other way. To get out of this abusive relationship, we have to clearly see the evolution of the regime.
When the atrocities of the Soviet regime became public, it punished the people who had uncovered them. The totalitarian regime confirmed that hell was not on the other side of the shore, it was here, in the USSR all along, and everyone should fear it because the regime can do whatever it wants.
We are together in this resistance. Even today, Ukrainian cities are bombed and lives are lost.
To stop this mortal insanity, we have to be much stronger and united when it comes to anti-Russian sanctions. We have to communicate to regular citizens in the West that they are absolutely necessary. It does, in fact, slow down the Russian war machine, even though the propaganda tries to make the world believe that sanctions are worse on other countries than they are on Russia itself. We should not be paying for the war. We should not buy Russian energy. More systemic embargoes and sanctions are necessary. It is the most peaceful way for the world to stop the aggressor.
I have just one more question for you. France and the EU say that Ukraine is part of the European family. How is it seen in France? How would the EU benefit from having Ukraine as a member state?
Philippe de Lara: Ukraine is indeed very welcome in the EU. For Ukraine, membership is going to be a helping hand in terms of security and economic prosperity. For us in the EU, on the other hand, Ukraine is a treasure that is not hidden anymore. The treasure of Ukrainian resistance is more deciding, knowledgeable, and specific. Ukraine, undoubtedly, is a big country in terms of its size, and it is going to enlarge the EU territorially. This tragic war made Europe aware of its real borders. The EU borders are actually the eastern borders of Ukraine and of the Baltic countries. Not just administrative, but civilizational borders.
Edited by Cammie McAtee